IRC logs: #angband-dev / 2012-03-25

  1. 00:02 < CIA-25> angband: Chris Weisiger v4-master * r61be667 / lib/edit/monster.txt : All monsters with absorption of 1 reduced to absoption of 0. - http://git.io/UYe7qg
  2. 00:03 < Derakon> And apparently I can't spell. Oh well.
  3. 00:03 < Derakon> Gonna head out for a bit again.
  4. 00:03 < myshkin> Oops.
  5. 00:03 < myshkin> Me too.
  6. 00:03 < Derakon> Thanks, Myshkin.
  7. 00:03 < myshkin> No problem. Easy merge to do.
  8. 01:42 -!- DarkGod [~dg@AToulouse-253-1-1-61.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
  9. 02:31 < Derakon> Righto, my hobbit rogue is now clvl 10, so I'm declaring finesse fighters viable in the early game at least. :)
  10. 02:34 < Derakon> ...and then he read a Scroll of Curse Weapon, rendering him instantly useless as a character.
  11. 02:34 < Derakon> So he committed suicide.
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  13. 07:28 < CIA-25> angband: Gabe Cunningham master * r701f598 / src/spells1.c :
  14. 07:28 < CIA-25> angband: Fix #1634 (assertion failure).
  15. 07:28 < CIA-25> angband: (cherry picked from commit ebdb54dd2f2c91f85bdcf5928e5c7e429b5917f3) - http://git.io/qZgsKQ
  16. 09:17 < magnate> Would anyone mind if we renamed INVEN_TOTAL to INVEN_QUIVER, and ALL_INVEN_TOTAL to INVEN_TOTAL?
  17. 09:50 < nck_m> Thoughts on future UI: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showpost.php?p=67770&postcount=4
  18. 09:52 < nck_m> Also, I nearly have a working UTF8 visual menu. Will do a pullreq when it's done.
  19. 09:59 < magnate> Nice work
  20. 10:18 < magnate> Ok, I've worked out why archery is giving me such a problem in the new combat system:
  21. 10:19 < magnate> We have three different concepts to quantify: accuracy (hit chance), power (damage), and attack speed (blows/shots)
  22. 10:20 < magnate> But we only have two object characteristics: balance and heft/draw. This works fine for melee weapons, because we derive both accuracy and speed from balance, and power from heft. But it doesn't work for launchers.
  23. 10:20 < magnate> If you think about bows and crossbows, the factors which affect accuracy aren't the same as the ones that affect shooting speed. In fact no two of the three go together, IMO.
  24. 10:21 < magnate> The best I can do is with crossbows, where the damage and shooting speed go together but as opposites, i.e. more damage comes from longer winding.
  25. 10:21 < magnate> Hmmm, perhaps this is true for bows also.
  26. 10:22 < magnate> This is going to mean that a shortbow shoots 50% more often than a longbow, which will take some getting used to, but isn't necessarily very wrong.
  27. 10:43 < magnate> Why the hell does messing with object.txt result in "bad call to store_ownerbyidx" ???
  28. 10:44 < magnate> That makes no sense. Store_ownerbyidx is about shuffling owners, it has nothing to do with objects
  29. 10:45 < magnate> grrr
  30. 10:48 < magnate> Got it. I had inadvertently used an extra slot, which wrecked things.
  31. 11:08 < CIA-25> angband: magnate v4-master * r22fbfa2 / src/attack.c : Tidy up attack.c, adhering to coding guidelines and indulging OCD. No functional changes. - http://git.io/mRW2uA
  32. 11:08 < CIA-25> angband: magnate v4-master * rf7c33f8 / (lib/edit/object.txt lib/edit/store.txt): Increase balance & heft by 5% for 60:40 or 40:60 weapons and by 10% for 50:50 weapons. Add balance and heft for launchers. Make clubs hafted weapons and make stores stock them. - http://git.io/dyrX3Q
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  36. 13:21 < j0ona> myshkin: thanks, the 3.4-dev you linked is working pretty much like I wanted
  37. 14:03 < magnate> Quick poll: which do you prefer / hate least:
  38. 14:04 < magnate> 1. xbow multipliers increase with increasing prowess & STR (same as bows)
  39. 14:04 < magnate> 2. xbow multipliers are calculated completely differently from bow mults, with no ref to STR or prowess (means a separate tval for xbows)
  40. 14:05 < Aerdan> #2 would be more appropriate, IMO.
  41. 14:05 < magnate> 2 is more realistic, but do we want to go that route? I'm imagining weak magi/priests getting cross if their xbows suddenly do far less damage ...
  42. 14:05 < magnate> ok
  43. 14:07 < Aerdan> what I'd really like to see is a Legend-style revamp of attributes, where each class has a key offense modifier and key defense modifier, along with weapons using the appropriate attribute (str for bows, dex for xbows, etc.; small blades like daggers would also be dex-based, and so on).
  44. 14:08 < magnate> v4 has moved quite a way towards that
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  46. 14:25 < magnate> Ok, finally I've started fixing archery. Slings, bows and xbows are now all separate tvals, so we can treat them differently if we need to, without worrying about svals
  47. 14:25 < magnate> At the moment slings and bows use the same damage mult as melee weapons (depending on str), but xbows use a flat heft-based mult which is unaffected by STR or prowess.
  48. 14:25 < magnate> Means that bows get better as you get stronger and xbows don't.
  49. 14:26 < magnate> The new tvals have broken loads of tests, so there will now be a short pause
  50. 14:26 < d_m> magnate: i think slings should be 50/50
  51. 14:27 < d_m> since you don't really need a ton of strength to use one
  52. 14:32 < fizzix> magnate: If you want a high level bow to be very powerful, you may want to either reduce arrow damage compared to bolts, or reduce ranger bonuses
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  56. 16:08 < Derakon> Concerning crossbows, the way I see it is that STR dictates how long it takes you to recock the bow.
  57. 16:09 < Derakon> You could fudge that by claiming that you have a special crossbow that can be recocked at a variety of positions, and thus recocking takes a constant time but STR dictates how "far" you get in that time.
  58. 16:09 < Derakon> In the former case, STR dictates firing speed; in the latter it dictates shot power.
  59. 16:10 < Derakon> Also, I thought we were going to increase the dice on unbiased weapons, not the balance/heft?
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  64. 18:55 < magnate> Derakon: oops, you're right. We were going to increase dice. Sorry, I got carried away editing.
  65. 18:56 < magnate> My current RoF for all bows is tot_prowess * K / heft, where K is a constant
  66. 18:56 < magnate> But this gives too many shots in the late game, as prowess hits 700ish
  67. 18:57 < magnate> (Or too few in the early game, if K is large to counter the late-game problem)
  68. 18:58 < magnate> So I started down the track of thinking about separate fin/prow skills for archery
  69. 18:58 < magnate> Although it seems obvious, it plays havoc with "what do these plusses on my ring of accuracy apply to?"
  70. 19:01 < magnate> FWIW, I'm not sure that the extra 5-10% balance/heft will make 50-50 weapons suddenly attractive to fin-only or prow-only builds
  71. 19:01 < magnate> But we can see
  72. 19:01 < Derakon> Yeah, that's one reason why I think better dice is favorable.
  73. 19:02 < Derakon> It's more evidently "better" in some respect.
  74. 19:02 < magnate> That's a blunt instrument though - there's a huge difference between 2d5 and 3d5, or even 2d6
  75. 19:02 < magnate> So I guess a combination is probably good - dice for the big changes and balance/heft for the tweaking
  76. 19:02 < Derakon> Yeah.
  77. 19:02 < Derakon> On that note, my dice tweaks are almost certainly not perfect. :)
  78. 19:03 < Derakon> For example, should great hammers really be 1d16?
  79. 19:03 < magnate> I think so
  80. 19:03 < magnate> Almost the same average damage as before
  81. 19:03 < magnate> But wildly unpredictable
  82. 19:03 < magnate> They are THE item that ought to get the occasional "crushing blow"
  83. 19:03 < magnate> (hey, there's an idea for a proc ...)
  84. 19:04 < Derakon> (Yeah, let's just rip everything out of Diablo 2. ¬.¬)
  85. 19:04 < magnate> Derakon: I presume you played D2 in its day?
  86. 19:04 < magnate> ;-)
  87. 19:04 < Derakon> Define finished.
  88. 19:04 < Derakon> As in, ready to be shunted over to the main branch?
  89. 19:04 < magnate> No no
  90. 19:04 < magnate> Just without any obviously unfinished changes in it
  91. 19:05 < Derakon> Ah
  92. 19:05 < magnate> So basically just a lot of tidying up of the new combat system's interaction with ego item generation
  93. 19:05 < magnate> i.e. affixes that affect balance and heft, affix-ID working properly, pseudo removed etc.
  94. 19:06 < magnate> When we've basically got that all neat and tidy I'll allow myself to break everything again with new randarts, or new effects code, or something
  95. 19:06 < magnate> But I'm holding off until then, because I've done a LOT of management development courses and I know the risks of scoring zero on Completer-Finisher
  96. 19:06 < Derakon> Heh.